Curse

JoeKnowMo · Apr 23, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

The PvE skills should have no grind attached.

And Ursan needs to be usable only in elite missions (and maybe HM?).

Melody Cross · Apr 23, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Remember when you load into HA, wanting to experience how fun it is? Three hours later, you're still there, because everyone is spamming "LF r5+ monk" or "LF r9+ ele."

That sucked.

The hero title is one of the biggest symbols of grind (with a little skill), and Anet knows it already killed entry to higher end PvP. It turned players who won't accept someone of a lower rank into "elitist PvPers."

So why are they doing that for PvE now, with all these grind-necessary PvE skills? Are they wanting to turn those same people who cried about "elitist PvPers" into hypocrites when they go out and advertise "LF r8+ ursan" or "LF r3+ SY"?

Ultimately, I think thats exactly what they wanted to do. They had to know it would happen. Its what always happens when you introduce titles and skills like this to a player base.

Many Elite PvE players have been asking for ways to represent their "skill" since GW's inception. They've been asking for ways to make the game easier in the same post more often than not.

Its--to me anyway--been no surprise that GW:EoTN (an expansion touted as an "elite" area for end game players) gave them both.

Arguing that grind is against Anets model is, frankly, an exercise in futility. Anet is evolving its model--both its model for play and its business model--regularly. By the time GW2 comes out, GW1 will probably be unrecognizable from what it was when we bought it. I mean, look at it now. We've gone from "we'll never sell content" to "everything must go!" How is anyone surprised that the game play would shift from "skill is greater than grind" to "Ursan (and the grind it requires) is greater than everything!"

My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far.

GGs

Shyft the Pyro · Apr 23, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Arguing that grind is against Anets model is, frankly, an exercise in futility.

Was, then. Sadly, initial marketing no longer coincides with game mechanics, which a lot of people aren't happy about... but which a lot of the usual MMO crowd wants. In effect, the initially targeted non-MMO customer base is getting sidelined by ANet's pursuit of the (much broader) MMO customer base and a bigger share of the market. Playable races, jumping - all the stuff that's making people scream "GW2 is WoW!" - is aimed at luring the usual MMO crowd to GW, and the rest of us have to choose between "grin and bear it" and "get the RED ENGINE out." Remember, because of server costs, we're actually a drain on ANet resources unless we actually buy their newest product, be it a chapter, an expansion, a BMP, or GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Anet is evolving its model--both its model for play and its business model--regularly. By the time GW2 comes out, GW1 will probably be unrecognizable from what it was when we bought it. I mean, look at it now. We've gone from "we'll never sell content" to "everything must go!" How is anyone surprised that the game play would shift from "skill is greater than grind" to "Ursan (and the grind it requires) is greater than everything!"

If we're going to talk about Ursan Blessing, that in itself is a response to the power creep that Nightfall introduced. This forum's old threads are filled with sentiment like "OMG Realm of Torment is insane!" and "I'm a Mesmer, how do I complete The Deep?" Ursan is the easy button, the rocket launcher that anyone can pick up to finish off whatever they still might want to do in GW. The whole point of it - as I'm guessing ANet sees it - is that Ursan is the ultimate tool for getting people to buy GW2. If everything is easy, everything takes less time, which means you can do more with your time, which means - oh, look! Title grind! I haven't considered that yet...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far.

GGs

Not everyone did. Many people have quit, over various things, but as someone is (usually) quick to point out, quitters don't come to fansite forums. Even if they do, they're easily dismissed as people who can't talk about the game any more ("LOL Zinger, go back to your WoW!"). What's left is a mixture of equal parts fanboy ("ANet can do no wrong") and cautious optimist ("I'll buy their next product, just because it might get better...").

For the record, I am the latter

Age · Apr 23, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

Another thing I want to mention (sorry if it has been mentioned but I'm busy at work for the time being so didn't really read much of this thread), is that unlike other chapters where you get tons of stuff for what you pay for... for GWEN, you pay money, then HAVE to grind to get your money's worth.

Being able to get more skills is half the reason I buy a new chapter. Unfortunately, with GWEN, paying for a chapter wasn't enough. For me to be able to use the skills that I paid my money for, I had to grind for hours and hours and hours... for each rep that I wanted to use... for each character that wanted to use these skills with...

That's not what I bought this series for.

That pretty much sums it up for me to.

Winterclaw · Apr 24, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Arguing that grind is against Anets model is, frankly, an exercise in futility.

QFT. Anet wants to go in this new direction and because they don't have to worry about people not playing or buying the next game, they'll push it as far as they can. The fact that they have even considered infinate level means grind is more or less going to be a permanent feature... and everyone who is good at grinding is going to keep demanding it because of 3peen.

Quote:

My stance on this issue: you made your bed; go lie in it. Players have asked for this crap. They petitioned for these changes and applauded when they happened. Arguing against common sentiment about them got your thread locked and your posts deleted. So I stopped trying. I just grab the popcorn and watch yall freak out when you realize it went too far.

I can't argue with this either. It seemed like for everyone who said keep GW at 20 levels and keep the grind out, there was at least one or two more who said shut up noob.

IMO this is all NF's fault with both its power-creep and its grind creep. GWEN was an extention of that. GW2 is going to be an extention of GWEN at least in terms of grind.

Melody Cross · Apr 24, 2008, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Not everyone did. Many people have quit, over various things, but as someone is (usually) quick to point out, quitters don't come to fansite forums. Even if they do, they're easily dismissed as people who can't talk about the game any more ("LOL Zinger, go back to your WoW!"). What's left is a mixture of equal parts fanboy ("ANet can do no wrong") and cautious optimist ("I'll buy their next product, just because it might get better...").

For the record, I am the latter

Well, I'll admit that it was a harsh statement of mine to level at the playerbase entire. But I do maintain such a stance toward the majority of QQers who have realized that all these "great features" they begged and pleaded and scratched and clawed for are not that hot, decrease skill level and in general, make the game less fun.

Gimmes (those people who stick out their hand and shout "Gimmie" instead of working to earn something) are a cancer to good game evolution and life in general. They don't want improved play four gripes out of five. They want the game--their build, their team, their playstyle--to be easier. They don't want to earn something in-game, they want to buy it cheap.

And they are all over the MMO industry. It was nice back in the day when we could say "Go play WoW if you want that crud." Now? We'd be hypocritical to.

GW is a Korean economics version free-to-play-if-you-ignore-how-much-you-gotta-pay-for-it WoW. GW2 will be moreso. My opinion.

GGs

Zidane Ortef · Apr 26, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

There is realy no need to grind anything in this game. like it has been said SS can be made to r6-7 by just playing the game, now do a few HM vanquishing in Elona grab teh hunts and GG u will have R10 in no time, same goes for EotN doing teh storyline/ Dungeons u can reach about R5-6 on each Rep title, then vanquish the few areas in EotN and GG u will have max or close to max Rep titles with little effort at all and for those who cry about HM being to hard the basic 3 man necro team is enough to cover almost all bases of HM in the game and for those who play Paragon HM is even more ridiculously easy Imbagon + 3 necro team = GG to all.

thibault the monk · Apr 27, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

There is no rule that says u must join ursan groups first of all. With that said there is no rule saying that you HAVE to grind these pve titles up. You are more than allowed to take h/h and go out and do whatever u want by yourself. People want r10 ursans because it makes things go faster, a r1 ursan party can clear uw/fow but it takes just as long as a balanced group, whats the point of that.

Second it is really easy to get these titles up, thats why Anet introduced the special weekends every once in a while when u get double points. You can MAX out the norn title track in a few hours on one of these weekends.

In WoW u HAVE to grind in order to progress to the next level, in GW you HAVE to grind only, and i mean ONLY, if u want to join these groups that want the high level ursan/ss/lb people. No one is requiring u to join these groups. Whine all u want, but gw is still NOT a grind-based game, it has grinds in it to enhance the game-play for players that liek to go out and do the grinds.

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Title discrimination is a problem only when titles aren't reasonable metrics. If the hero title was actually a solid measure of skill, there wouldn't be anything wrong with "rX+ only" groups.

The thing about Ursan is that higher ranks = bigger numbers, and the blessing itself lowers the impact of player skill to the point of irrelevance. Thus, Ursan discrimination isn't entirely meritless.

I agree with Melody that the community brought this upon themselves. Fortunately, most of the people who were smart enough to recognize the pitfalls early on are also the people who are smart enough to do the game on their own, thus handily side-stepping the Ursan problem.

BlackSephir · Apr 27, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by thibault the monk

With that said there is no rule saying that you HAVE to grind these pve titles up.

You even don't have to take any skills with you. But every player will try to maximize his efficiency and if maxing this efficiency is only available through brain-killing grind then it becomes a problem. You don't have to buy runes and insignias for your armour but it will make your character better. The difference is that buying runes doesn't require you to grind.

Quote:

Second it is really easy to get these titles up, thats why Anet introduced the special weekends every once in a while when u get double points. You can MAX out the norn title track in a few hours on one of these weekends

I don't see anyone saying that it's hard. Do you? It's boring. It's god damn boring, it's not challenging at all, it's pathetic c-spaceing. People don't like to do boring, simple-minded tasks that even retarded 5 years old can do. At least I don't like to do this.

Quote:

In WoW

Whoa, easy there, you're entering dangerous territory. Since when WoW is in the same category as GW and even if it was, since when WoW is some kind of a role model? See, some people bought GW because while still being an online game, it was completely different than WoW. No monthly fee, no grind, no uber stuff, no high levels, no races etc etc. Now with introduced grind AN moved from "not like wow" to "a bit like wow". GW players shouldn't feel similarities to WoW, we should see that it's different.
And for the record, if GW 2 will have racial bonuses, ultra high levels then it doesn't look too bright.
But now that AN introduced "take this 1 skill, with it you'll divide and conquer" they are pretty much screwed. Can't remove them- ursanites will go on rampage. Can't leave it as it is- elite areas hm being done by a drunken teenager (last time I checke, 'hard' means something that's, um, NOT easy to do) . Nerf them to the ground- rampage and whining.

People have made a bad habit of connecting grind with MMOs/online "RPGs", or ever worse, with RPGs alone. No. Grind is not necessarily connected with MMOs just like first person perspective in games isn't connected with guns. Grind is a bad design choice, "how to make players earn something that won't be too hard for them to do and for us to implement". Grind is a pathetic attempt at making players believe that they are "earning" or "achieving" something. It's done by lazy devs that are not interested in making the game reward effort. It's rewarding time spent instead.
Now, I'm not saying to put more pve skills or something as ridiculous as that, but didn't it struck you that doing all Titan quests in Tyria gives you "only" shitload of exp, while grinding norn rank makes your skills better, gives you more health? Seems pretty funny especially when you compare the difficulty level of these 2 things.

Toxage · Apr 27, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I don't get where the "grind" is.... I maxed out all my EOTN reps in a month or two afterwards casually playing.

WOW grinding is totally different. You have to put so much effort into that game. You must grind consumables, potions, enchants, patterns, learn the encounter, spend hours clearing trash etc etc.

GW - log on for an hour a day do a couple missions log out. You'll max your title in no time.

Durik Lakmor · Apr 27, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I agree with the OP, I have played since the E3 for Everyone event. I found EotN to be disappointing at best, then people start forming these Ursan groups and its like YOUR class doesn't even matter anymore. Its just a same skill for everyone button.

Which is in itself lame and unfun in my opinon. Now it is true you don't have to join an ursan group, but it is pretty danged hard to get a DoA group made of other ways. Sadly I left before this was a big deal with the titans area and of course mallyx itself unfinished before I had to leave for Basic.

Now I feel like it will be one challenge in GW I may never complete because I don't want to grind out Norn rep.

Div · Apr 27, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I don't get where the "grind" is.... I maxed out all my EOTN reps in a month or two afterwards casually playing.

WOW grinding is totally different. You have to put so much effort into that game. You must grind consumables, potions, enchants, patterns, learn the encounter, spend hours clearing trash etc etc.

GW - log on for an hour a day do a couple missions log out. You'll max your title in no time.

So you're saying it's perfectly fine for a casual player to have to spend 1-2 months prepping their characters so that they can join PUGs in DoA/UW/FoW?

Burst Cancel · Apr 27, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

We're getting into the question of whether players should be able to jump into any part of the game on-demand. Asking whether players should have to prep their characters for 1-2 months for elite missions isn't far from asking whether people should even have to level their characters or beat missions in sequential order.

These questions are not trivial. People playing RPGs take leveling for granted, but who actually likes to level? Outside of games like Disgaea (where the entire point is basically powerleveling and item collecting), leveling is an arbitrarily-decided task the player has to do in order to get to the fun parts. That being the case, we should ask ourselves whether it's actually necessary for leveling to be a critical game mechanic.

I've played many games, both single and multiplayer, where the game doesn't really start until the 'endgame', when you've finally gotten high-level characters with good equipment, and the monsters and dungeons are actually complex and well-designed. Everything before that is just a lead-up to the real game. GW falls right into this category - Prophecies, for instance, doesn't really start until you hit the Southern Shivers, where everything is lvl20+, where you have access to elite skills, full 8-player parties, etc. That is the real GW. Why shouldn't the whole game, starting from Pre-Searing, be played at lvl20, with elite skills, and 8-player parties? It's worth considering the tradeoffs.

Bottom line: what do you gain, and what do you lose, by making a whole RPG the equivalent of "disk 4" (maxed everything, full access)?

Racthoh · Apr 27, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

So you're saying it's perfectly fine for a casual player to have to spend 1-2 months prepping their characters so that they can join PUGs in DoA/UW/FoW?

And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.

KennyC · Apr 27, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.

Didnt they do this with WOW? Increased Level Cap with an expansion, means everyone must buy the expansion or be left behind. Same with EOTN, buy it - or no FOW, DOA, UW or any of the uber overpowered skills.

Racthoh · Apr 27, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

Same with EOTN, buy it - or no FOW, DOA, UW or any of the uber overpowered skills.

I've been quite able to complete FoW, DoA, and UW before owning EOTN since none of those zones are EOTN content.

Bront · Apr 28, 2008, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

And have to own EOTN. Campaign discrimination is kinda sad.

In some ways, you already have that discrimination. People looking for builds or skills only available in one campaign is common enough outside of UB and pre UB.

KennyC · Apr 28, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I've been quite able to complete FoW, DoA, and UW before owning EOTN since none of those zones are EOTN content.

Thats not what I mean. 99% of groups are now composed soley of Ursan, unless you have eotn you are excluded from these groups and therefore the elite areas.

MasterSasori · Apr 29, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

If Anet wants to be like WoW, at least they should make a point of it. You simply don't go out advertising that this is a grind-free game, and when a new player buys it, they find they can't play a large portion of the end-game because their lack of grinding makes it impossible for them to find groups. Sure they can join good guilds running balanced builds, but how likely is that given a very casual player? The direction GW (and GW2) is changing into is one that'll attract more players in general, but with their goal changes, they should also change their advertising.

You should also mention how being PvP competitive is impossible without most of the campaigns.